Devin Townsend: The mental battle of light and dark
Michael Schübeler November 2000
Last time we talked you told me that "Infinity" was your most intimate and hardest album to make. Was it a bit easier this time?
DT :This was easier to record. But my brain was in such a state of turmoil that after "Infinity", I got diagnosed being manic depressive, and I spent a year on the couch, depressed. A YEAR, sleeping. After that, after I nearly lost my wife, nearly lost my band, nearly lost my family and insulted and hurt so many of my friends, I decided that it was time to go to a doctor and get checked out. He diagnosed me of having a manic depressive-illness and I started taking medication. But that medication started kicking in during the time that I was recording "Physicist". Now "Physicist" being such a... It's a ruthless-sounding record, it's really brutal, but at the same time the lyrics, once you do listen to them, are positive. It's optimistic. And the reason is because at the time, even though life was HELL for me, the medication for making me see that there is hope for the future. - How did it come that all these negative things seem to happen at once? Was it just bad luck? DT :What I think what happened was: There has been so much stimulus for me, 'cause I started when I was 19. And I just kept going and going and going and going. And "Infinity" was such a hard record to make, that after it was done and out, I just crashed! BANG!! All the past, all the childhood, all the Steve Vai, all the STRAPPING and everything just came down on me - and it was brutal!! - You did "Infinity" on your own completely. How was it on "Physicist"? DT: For this record, what I wanted to do was: The band for STRAPPING also plays the "Infinity" and the OCEAN MACHINE stuff live. We toured, and we became tight as a musical unit. So for this record I just got the same guys who played in STRAPPING to play parts on it. I wrote all the music, demoed all the parts out, gave them tapes and said: "Here are the parts!" Then we jammed them for two weeks and we put it down. - When I look at the titles, there are many "What kind of..." titles: "What kind of victim?", "What kind of kingdom?" etc. DT: See, my thing in life at the moment is: My brain has been so complicated for so long that now what I'm trying to do is simplify, as much as I possibly can. For example, the song "Kingdom" started off as "Kingdom Of God". But when I was talking to the band and they went: "What song you gonna play next?", I just said: ""Kingdom"." - and everyone knows what I'm talking about. So in keeping with that vibe, it just sort of struck me: "If I'm going to simplify my life, I might as well start." My next project, which is the one I'm more furiously proud of than anything I've ever done, and it's gonna make "Infinity" seem like a walk in the fucking pre-school, it's called TERRIA, and it will be my "brown" record. It's the opposite of OCEAN MACHINE. OM was water, TERRIA is earth. For the past 5, 6 records of mine I've done all the guitars and everything in a real bombastic sense where I played big Heavy Metal Explorers with EMG pick-ups and big Heavy Metal Peavy amplifiers, just "1-2-3-4-BOOM!!!" What I did with TERRIA is, I bought myself a Fender Stratocaster, a completely plain, clean guitar. And I started writing on that with different sounds, totally different sounds: some clean, some of them acoustically, some of them are a little bit more bluesy, some are countryish, some are totally, TOTALLY insane Metal. You know what I mean? But what has come out of me is "Alien Music". The ideas that I have for production, the ideas that I have for sounds, the ideas I have for lyrics, the ideas I have for song arrangements, and the ideas I have for the way the record will run from beginning to end, not only is it perfect in my mind, but it is so far removed from what anybody is doing right now, that it will just make you shit your pants! I can guarantee that!! - Does this alien have a pretty face? DT: Oh, it's a beautiful face! It's absolutely gorgeous music. It's "Peace Music". Even though there's heavy, heavy parts in that, it's not because I'm trying to be dark, it's just because life has bad parts of it. There's light and dark to everything. So for me if I did a whole record full of birds singing and acoustic guitars, it just wouldn't be right. If I can incorporate a little bit of that and then have the other side of the coin, have screaming, screaming guitars and the vocals are really melodic and singing and loud, it's just beautiful. It's like a symphony, it's like an alien landscape symphony. - You told me that what you learned from "Infinity" was that there are no limits if you don't want to have any. Have you learned the hard way by these things that happened around you that there are limits that you must accept? DT: There are limits that you must accept as a human, but there is no limits that you have to accept as a musician. - It must be frustrating for you because you have an unlimited mind. DT: Well, I think everybody has an unlimited mind, and that's part of the lyrical content on "Physicist" because in "Infinity", I was just so deluded and I was in such a state of grandeur that I thought I was superior. But with "Physicist", I was humble. I was brought back down to earth. And I realized that not only am I the same as everybody else, but everybody has the exact same potential. - You're right, everyone HAS an unlimited mind, but most people forget - in the daily routine or however - to use it. It's not only them - it's me, too, man! I mean, it's a goal for me to have an unlimited mind, but, you know, just being raised the way I was, being from North America and having the experiences I have, there's limits on my mind that I don't even know are there! Know what I mean? So the only thing I can do is think! And the more I think, the more I learn. And some people get their learning from experience. But for me, it's... - Learning by doing, eh? Not even! It's almost learning by subconscience. When I write, it's almost like an automatic writing where you just... It comes out! And you're a medium almost for the information. - Yeah, you told me that everything comes to you at once: the music, the lyrics, the instrumentation. DT: Absolutely. But because of that, you're not really responsible for it. And when you're not responsible for it in the direct sense, your subconscious mind takes over and you're a lot more honest about what you are doing as a result. So what I do is: After I finished a record, I'm able to stand back from it, look at it and objectify it a little bit and say: "Okay, I didn't know what was going on in my head at that particular point, but now when I have the record completed in front of me and the lyrics - I understand!" So it's almost like you're teaching yourself by listening to your mind. And the thing is: Your mind is... See, my mind was lying to me before. Now that I'm on this medication, everything is more like: "No, no, no, no! That's wrong! You decided wrong!" It's like: It's obvious that it's limitless. It's obvious that the world exists purely as it is, and that's perfect! And you fit into it whatever scheme you fit into it. And the best that you can do as a human being is to do your best at what you do. - Yeah, all the time! DT: All the time! All the time!! My motto is a line from a TRIUMPH song: "The love you send out returns to you in time." It's such a simple motto and so perfect for me that I'm wondering why I seem to be the only one around who does that. I completely agree with you, but another way to look at it or to explain it will be Kharma. And that's what I've learned with "Physicist". The first song ("Namaste") goes: "What have I learned?", you know. It's because... (Devin sighs.) When I made a mess of my life, it came back to me. And it nearly destroyed me! And it was a lesson! It was a really, really hard lesson. But I've learned the lesson, you know. I'm not gone, I'm still here. If I had come out of that, going: "I can't believe all the shit that happens to me!", "Why me?", "Poor me!"... If I had come out of it like THAT, we probably wouldn't be talking now. But I came out of it like: "Wow! What a mess!!" - So you left your cocoon somehow? Yes I did. But, you see, with "Infinity", I think the last time we were talking, I was saying: "As soon as this is done, I'm gonna be like a superman!" But what I didn't realize is that there is a lot of work to do before you get to that state. I mean, I saw what I wanted to be doing, but... - But you told me that you knew that it would take a lot of work! DT: Yes, but I didn't know that the work it was gonna take was me having to admit my wrong doings. You know, first I thought it would only be creative work, but it totally took me sideways when I had to go: "Oh my god! This is the work! The work is making up with my wife, making up with my family, and trying to organize my life in a way where I make a message for all the people that I've wronged. - These wrong doings or mistakes or whatever, did they happen unconsciously? DT: No. They happened consciously. - Oh. Yes. Yes... And that's the worst part of it, you know, because I honestly thought I was making the right decision when I wasn't thinking. I think that's the bad thing about it: Every time we take a decision we think at that very moment that it's right. Just afterwards, when we see the consequences, we realize that it maybe was completely wrong and destructive. - Absolutely! DT: And what I'm finding now, especially with this medication that I'm on: I'm able to spend more time with my decisions. I'm able to sit with it and go: "Yeah! Wait a minute... No!" I suppose just automatically jumping at it, just because it's something that I would have previously thought. It's made me weary, it's made me cautious, and it's made me stronger, by being just a human, by being just Devin! The kid that my mother loved and fed and has his likes and dislikes, and his hangups and his fears. Being that, now I'm finding comfort in. I'm finding comfort in finally letting myself be myself, without worrying about how other people are gonna perceive that. - Oh! I thought that you would never do that! DT: Neither did I! Neither did I, man. But what I'm finding is: The only way that I can continue to make music without repeating myself is: I take those steps. You know what I mean? And "Physicist", as much as I love it, was a very, very confusing record because I had so much internal hatred for myself. But at the same time, there was this light at the end of the tunnel. So as important as a record as it is for me, it's a transitional period. And it sets the stage for my next one which is by far and away the best music I've ever recorded. By far! - How can you judge it so surely? Is it because you know already know how you will get this music? DT: No. What happened was: With this realization of this humility came a sense of dynamics, a sense of the quiet and the loud, the positive and the negative. Something that up to this point I've never done! I've been so intent on... I mean, first I was intent on scaring people. Then I was intent on impressing people. Then I was intent on a bombastic assault of music without the subtle things. I worked on dynamics during OCEAN MACHINE, which is more the direction that I will be heading in the future. But now that I see it, I'm like: "OCEAN MACHINE had two, it had quiet and loud. But what I hear for TERRIA is all stakes in-between." Music that is dynamic. Music that is colorful. Music that is beautiful. Music that is symphonic. Music that is lyrically just so... I'm not talking about politics. I'm not talking about music. I'm not talking about me. I'm just talking about observations. Because I'm passed... In my head now lyrically I'm sorta passed going "Why?" And once the "Why" is gone, you're left with "Is". And you have nothing to do but comment on what you see. And what I'm trying to do with TERRIA is be impartial. I just want to be an observer. 'cause I think nature, which is my biggest influence, is an observer. It's totally impartial. And that's what I want to be in the future: I want to be open for all sorts of music, all sorts of experiences, all sorts of loves and hates and dislikes and everything in between, you know, but without judgement. Because I was so judgemental before, man! So judgemental! And that's the first sign of 1) mental instability, and 2) little sense of self-esteem. But now I know what I'm good at, I know what I'm bad at, but I can't compare myself to other people anymore, because it's not fair for either me or them. - When we talked last time I told you that we maybe are a bit similar. We were both born too soon and had to spend some time in the incubator. DT: I think you'll appreciate then the concept behind the "Physicist" record, being just the interplay on the complete differentiation between the two sides. - Have you learned to relax now? Yes. - Oh, I'm so glad to hear that! DT: The only reason why I have to apologize for my mood today is that I had so much coffee. I'm just like shaking, just like "Jajajajaja!", haha. How do you feel about marijuana? - I've never tasted it. Not even a cigarette! DT: I started when I was 23. And it... helps me. - In what way? DT: My mind gets peace. It's a time to reflect, and it's a tool if you choose to use it in the appropriate way. - Can it be that it helps you to rest within yourself? DT: Yes. Sometimes I feel guilt, honestly, because it's a drug, but at the same time I cannot deny what it does for me. - But isn't it a thin line between using it or "helpful" and misuse? DT: Yes, and I have real problems with that line. But at the same time I'm starting to come to terms of the fact that I say: "No! This is something I enjoy. This is something that 1) I don't feel guilt about it 'cause I never tried cocaine or heroin or crack or any of these chemical things. It's a plant. It smells nice, it makes me feel nice. I don't get crazy on it. I pick up the guitar and there's new ideas because of it. At first, my wife and I nearly broke up because of it. And then all of a sudden after I went on the medication, I just thought: "Oh man! Well, let's try this again!" And I was able to sort of control it. And now Tracy enjoys it because she sees me at peace. I know it's strange. Even when I talk about it I know for a fact that I won't do it for the rest of my life, just because of the guilt I feel. But at the same time I also can't deny what it makes me feel now. It brings me... It's almost like if McDonalds had a pill that made you meditate. D'you know what I mean? "McMeditation". It's a cheap form of the same thing. What I would love to do in the future is to learn how to just meditate and be at peace with myself. - Without using marijuana or anything else. DT: Without using anything. But until I can get to that point, I am still going to experiment. - You need it as a tool. DT: You know what I do in my opinion? For example, like "Infinity" or OCEAN MACHINE, all these records came from smoking pot! And people have said to me - I hate to say it 'cause it makes me feel silly - how much one of those projects may have meant to them. And I think to myself: "And that was given to me through the use of that..." So it's a moral dilemma for me because it brings out something in me that just is wonderful to me. - Does this guilt come from the thought that you say: "Clear art can only come from a clear mind!"? DT: No - and I don't believe that! I don't believe that because I think: "Art is art!" I honestly do. I think that clear, dirty, whatever... I mean, look at THE BEATLES, for example: "Sgt. Pepper" was written when they were blasted on acid! But the music is beautiful and profound. It's a fine line, like you say, but at the same time I find - not with any other drug, but with marijuana - a peace with it. I've found that I've made peace with it because I was at war with it for so long because I didn't know how I felt on it. Okay, I haven't made complete peace with it, but at least in my mind I'm more like... I don't feel the guilt when I'm doing it. Sometimes I just feel it on an aftereffect, just this "Oh my god!" You know what I mean. But again, like I said a couple of minutes back: Being open and being receptive to things and not closing your mind off too, because it's another limit. It's like I'm limiting myself in some people's opinion by not doing crack or cocaine. So everything can be looked at from so many different angles. - I never tried anything like that. For me any kind of health is a gift. I don't take it for granted. DT: You're very wise. And I honestly hope that I can get to that point one day. - My dream is to make a living from my writing talent alone. I have the love and devotion to make it, and with many writers I wonder where their devotion is. Now it's a job like any other for them. DT: That's one of the reasons why I've started the record-company (HevyDevy Records). If I get too close to the industry, I get so cynical. There's a hundred bands released every day by these shitty little Metal labels that sound exactly the same. - And this industry would eat you up! DT: Absolutely. And it has gotten close to chewing on me before. Didn't eat me, but it nibbled on my toes, haha. And as a result of that, I was like: "Okay, I've got to start my own label, so I don't have to be told to do anything. And it has to be away from Vancouver, away from the central parts of the town." So I'm isolated. And when I come out on a promo tour, for example, and I've been talking to some people and perhaps they like what I've done, it comes as a shock, not because I think the material isn't quality. Just because I'm never aware of it. - I told you about myself that I like the bad things I meet along my way, defeats of any kind. Those are the opportunities when I learn the most about myself, about sides that I don't even know that they are within me. DT: You're absolutely correct, and that goes back to what I said earlier: Your subconscience speaks for you and you can learn from yourself. I mean, honestly man: I feel so much better, I feel so much more cantered. But every now and then, I'm so confused! I'm fine, everything will be fine, and then it just stops and everything is confusing again. - I think that's the case with most people, but they don't even notice it. DT: Yeah, it's scary though. Again, I don't want to slip back into the mood that I was in previously. You know, I love my wife and she's a really good support for me. And she is so honest. If I would ever become like a rockstar, she would kill me. She would just laugh at me! - What kind of person must someone be to get along with you? DT: Me?! Uhm... placid! I really don't like people who are angry and aggressive. I'm afraid of people that are angry. I think my biggest thing with people and my criteria for friendship is a good sense of humor. That's so important! - I think it's also important that you can laugh about yourself. I don't take myself very serious. I mean, without the people around me, I am nothing! Nobody can exist on his own!! DT: Yeah, you're right. And I think the only reason I hesitate with that is because I think you always DO exist alone. - And everybody spends most of the time in his or her own company. DT: Absolutely! Absolutely. I'm satisfied... - To be honest: I sometimes feel very lonely. DT: Oh god, haha! I got a wife, and I love her dearly, but the thing is: we're so opposite. She is logical, beyond logical. She's creative, of course, but her creativity comes directly from her sense of 1+1=2. And because of that 1) she never lets me get away with bullshit. And 2) she's able to maintain the business extra-ordinarily well. - To be honest: I don't like men really. Most men are assholes - including myself! DT: Me, too, haha! - I mean, there are exceptions, but women are stronger and at the same time more sensitive than men. With men, you are lucky when you find one of these two things within a man. DT: But I think there's also something to be said for the validity of the male spirit: I think that although females may be superior in that particular way, I think there's a role that men play. For myself, and this is something I'm still dealing with, I'm trying to come to terms with my maleness. But with that comes an appreciation for the simplicity of being a man. As complex as my thought-patterns are, I'm pretty much food, sleep, sex, guitar. The woman is able to multitask mentally. I honestly can't. If I'm thinking about something, it's the only thing I'm thinking about. But Tracy, she's always got 15 things going at once. - Has she anything to do with music as well? DT: No. She's just taking care of the administrative side of things. - I just have no high opinion of men. DT: This is something, and when I say: "I disagree.", I don't mean it in an insult, obviously, but the only reasom why I would disagree is because since the last time I've talked to you, I have met men who are great. Great, good company. For myself it was a revelation to meet people that I was like: "You are smart. You're funny, you're intelligent, you're decent." You know, all these things. "You have respect for women." All these criteria are hard to find for the most part, but it is there in my opinion. I really do believe that. - But I have the feeling that in too many cases it gets lost. DT: Absolutely. I agree with that totally. - You told me that you always see all sides of everything. DT: I think that was a very arrogant statement of mine. I think it's impossible to see all sides. - You said for this reason it's impossible for you to be partial or to judge. DT: This has changed as well. Not the ability to judge, because I really don't like that or try to stay away from it, but I think that not having an opinion... (Devin takes a deep breath.) If you don't have anything to stand for, and if you have nothing that you feel passionate about, then there's no reason for existence - to a certain extent, not completely. But now I have opinions. Now I know what I can and cannot do, and what I should and should not do. And because of that I've grown stronger as a person. Because Tracy is a highly opinionated person. And before we get to a conversation, she's like: "Well, what do you think of it?" - "I don't!" And she's like: "Why not?!" And I: "Because I can see your side, and I can also see mine." - which is the truth! But at the same time that she asks me: "Okay, what's your side?", I go like: "Ahhh...!", hahaha. - So she forces you to a decision? DT: Not "forces" but confronts me to the point where I have to actually think. Because what I think what I was doing before was I was... It was... To say I had no opinion is a very easy way of stopping yourself from actually having to join in.